Judging and club nights!

Is there a quicker way to do judging ? Currently you have to sit for an hour or so listening to a judge giving a load of waffle to justify their fee, over pics that might or might not be all that great but as they are small prints in a large hall most of the members cant see them anyway…it just seems a rather mind numbing hour which would be far better spent letting the judge do his thing on his own, looking at the pics that could be on display for all to view and wander around places on those display boards….then we can all chat away to each other about cameras, getting tips, etc etc rather than having to be quiet for most of the club night listening to someone trying to tell me about a pic I cant see !

Actually I quite like to hear some of the judges comments. If we don't hear what he has to say then how do we know what the judges are looking for in a photo - competetive photography is a new experience for me and I suspect other newer members here.

Having said that, even in my limited experience, some a better than others and of course it depends on the standard of photography they have to judge.

I do think it would be nice to be able to see the entries better (not a problem for slides and projected digital of course). May be a different arrangement of seating would help. The chairs always seem to be a long way back. I think there are only ever about 40 people at a meeting. Maybe a more initmate arrangement could be made spreading out in a fan shape from the easel so more people can see closer up.

Colin

I was surprised when Gavin Hoey (I think that was his name) asked who had a DIGITAL camera, and virtually everyone put their hand up!!

If that's the case why on earth are people wasting time and money printing their pictures for competitions when digital pictures could be viewed (much more clearly in fact) by using a digital projector?

I can understand that many people have a pre-invested interest, but why continue this way?

I'm not suggesting it should stop immediately, but I do think we should consider phasing out this methodology for serial picture judgement, when pictures can be judged one after another just as well if not better using a projector.

Printed media DOES have it's place though. I think we should have exhibition evenings, where tables are setup around the room and members work is presented on these tables for all to see. Ok, the hall lighting may not be as good as the easels but the upside of being able to wander freely around all the tables inspecting others work for as long or a short a time as you see fit; and to be able to chat with the creators about their works, far outweighs this issue, in my humble opinion.

I seem to remember the summer open day having some proper exhibition stands, they were great, we could use those again. But if they weren't the clubs or cost money, then table tops would still work.

Perhaps we could actively advertise those evenings to the public and attract more members!

Another slant on the exhibition evenings is that they could be turned into peer judged competition evenings, with the members judging each others work anonymously. Everyone could have a score card, each picture could have a random numbers, everyone wanders round for an hour or so, marking their score card as they see fit, perhaps even with complimentary or constructive comments. A bit later in the evening, say 9:15 or so, the score cards could handed in and tallied up, then a brief announcement/discussion could inform us of the totalled scores.

Thoughts anyone?

Cheers,
Shaun

Firstly, some judges are better than others so you get good evenings and bad evenings. Secondly, I never care less about the final result, as it is very much a lottery dependent primarily on the judge's personal taste.So for me competition nights are about the comments, understanding why another experienced photographer likes or doesn't like an image so that I can improve my photography. And I learn from all the pictures submitted.

There are much larger clubs that seem to cope just fine with print competition evenings - having a proper stand, using a projector to illuminate the print work and careful arrangement of the chairs seem to work for us.

As to print versus projected. Most clubs are only able to project 1024 x 768 in a sRGB colourspace. I enter plenty of pictures in digital competitions that I simply couldn't print because the quality wouldn't be good enough, but I can get away with as projected images. Only the print medium truly allows a photographer to show the real quality of their work with current technology. I also find that there are images that work better in one medium rather than another - projected images are generally more about impact, whereas in the print medium, more subtle images often do better, perhaps because the permanence of a print makes a judge more inclined to think about living with an image rather than just being hit by it. I'm generalising of course. Plus, I want to compare my work against all of the very best photographers in my club. In our case, while digital workers may numerically have the advantage, the traditional darkroom workers continue to take a large share of the trophies in print competitions. The print competitions are the only arena where we compete on an equal footing.

Finally, as a consequence of print competitions I now have some very nice boxes at home full of lovingly mounted prints spanning my membership of the club which record my improvement as a photographer. Yes I have a folder of my digital submissions on a computer, but it's just not the same is it ?

There are different mediums in photography, we have been used to Prints and slides, take it back some years and there would have been glass plates and printing in the dark room only.
If you have ever experienced the dark room process, which I would imagine you haven't then you would be glad of the technology advancements enabling beautiful rich, quality colour and monochrome prints. Not so very long ago it was a specialist art form to print colour. Only a few ventured into a colour enlarger and working in a pitch black dark room. Red dark room lamps were no good and the supposedly safe black lamp was impossible to work with. I spent an absolute fortune on a colour head and didn't tell my Dad exactly how much it cost! The chemicals stink, paper has to be kept carefully and you need a special area that can be light proofed. My Parents sent me to the shed at the bottom of the garden, cold, damp and unpleasant.
So, whilst there are many dark room workers still braving the art, I have embraced the wonderful printer.
My point about all this is that to be able to print our images to have and to hold is so wonderfully easy, and something we could only dream of 15-20 years ago. It should be seen as something fantastic and not chore or an expensive waste of time. All hobbies are fun and appeal differently to different people.(apart from trainspotting, that's not fun and only appeals to one kind of person )
Most people learn so much about club photography from listening to judges comments. Admittedly some judges seem to feel obliged to say something even if there's nothing to say for fear of finishing too quick. But that's individual and some judges are entertaining and informative.
Clubs have to appeal to the majority and cater also for the minority. At the moment, the majority of photographers like prints. We have digital cometitions as well as slides. As the slide is declining in popularity the competitions for slides are disappearing. There is room for more digital competitions but they will never replace the print.
How do you display them all at once for viewing? What about exhibitions? Digital would not be practical. You mention the exhibition boards, they belong to the KCPA, cost a fortune to buy and there is a charge for hiring them. They are a pig to transport, we had to bribe someone to help us out with his industrial trailer and string them was just as problematic. Also, you were there when they were put up at the open day, how long did that take to get them up and how many people did it take to do it?! Whilst a nice idea maybe, totally not possible!
Just a side note, there are always seats spare up the front if you can't see...
I think that once you start entering for competitions you will want to hear the 'waffle' that the judge has to say about your entry and you may think differenly. Get something entered and then repost....

Presumably this is a reference to the judge last Tuesday? If so then I agree that he could have been a bit more lively and entertaining but not everyone can manage that. I think the main problem is that he had only 21 prints to occupy two hours and that is not his fault but ours (myself included). If he had been faced with 100 prints then his time to comment would have been severely curtailed and , perforce he would have had to be huch snappier. The remedy is in our court, make sure that ALL competitions are supported with a large number of entries. As for the judge, he made some good comments, constructive and encouraging. I do not recall any disparaging remark about any of the work submitted and if his comments are acted on then the quality of prints should improve.

PS For the first time ever, I brought a pair of binoculars to the evening and what a difference they made to the visibility of the prints.

Agree with comments above - presenting and viewing images for printed competitions will always be an issue. Judge needs close view of image to provide appropriate comment - they will always be in the way of some of those seated!

Just a suggestion - How about projecting the digital file (if available) of the image for all to see? Not sure of the logistics or if even feasible. The judge can still provide critique on the printed image whilst the rest of us can see what they are talking about.

Like Peter I'm also guilty of not submitting work recently, been too busy even to pick up my camera let alone sort images for presentation!

Like the idea of the peer judged competion perhaps one in the final weeks of the season where all winning images (or 20 point images) from comp's throughout the year are pitted against each other - mind you it would probably be won by Karen, Julia or Don

I do like to hear what judges have to say but, they need training in presentation skills. On one competition evening a member had to ask the judge to stand aside so he could see the pic, then carried on standing in front of the pic. I had to ask same judge to speak up and I was not at the back of the hall.
I do think that the pics should be on display after the judgeing, maybe club can buy some more of those cardboard stands.

I wish to agree, making particular reference to this evening's competition. There were 33 entries and could have been done by coffee. Despite being asked to wrap it up by coffee the judge seemed to be lost for words and trying to pad it out. It was boring and unnecessary, a waste of time that we could have been chatting and comparing notes.

So true Julia.

Julia wrote:I wish to agree, making particular reference to this evening's competition. There were 33 entries and could have been done by coffee. Despite being asked to wrap it up by coffee the judge seemed to be lost for words and trying to pad it out. It was boring and unnecessary, a waste of time that we could have been chatting and comparing notes.

I agree Julia, done by coffee would have been ideal.
A nice fella though, make a darn good hypnotist.

Knows his slide film too.

Wow that guy was dull.

Colin wrote:Wow that guy was dull.

Maybe he was under the impression he had to make it last until the end of the evening?

Do judges get paid for judging?
If so, perhaps he didn't want to "short change" us by finishing early?

llamnuds wrote:

Maybe he was under the impression he had to make it last until the end of the evening?

Do judges get paid for judging?
If so, perhaps he didn't want to "short change" us by finishing early?

I had a little bit the same idea, that he had to fill in the whole evening...well he tried. But I admid, he was really boring.

He was aware that there was a small number of images and I asked Alan to tell him that there was no need to drag it out as we wanted to finish by coffee. He said that he was aware, so he must have taken it upon his self to drag it out.

Sorry I missed how "nice" the judge was because his voice made me go to sleep!!

He made a very conscious effort to say positive things about all the photos.

llamnuds wrote:He made a very conscious effort to say positive things about all the photos.

But that is not always helpful, there were photos that he could have given constructive critisisim of to help us all take better photos. It is no use just being nice, that helps no one.

sapper wrote:

llamnuds wrote:He made a very conscious effort to say positive things about all the photos.

But that is not always helpful, there were photos that he could have given constructive critisisim of to help us all take better photos. It is no use just being nice, that helps no one.

By positive, I mean constructive, not nice.

He was not overly critical, he could indeed have been a little more cutting.

llamnuds wrote:

sapper wrote:

llamnuds wrote:He made a very conscious effort to say positive things about all the photos.

But that is not always helpful, there were photos that he could have given constructive critisisim of to help us all take better photos. It is no use just being nice, that helps no one.

By positive, I mean constructive, not nice.

He was not overly critical, he could indeed have been a little more cutting.

I don't think a judge should be cutting, that just puts folk off from entering the comp, but as you say, constructive critisisim is the way. It is not an easy job to ask the judge to do & I am not a judge but could have done better than this fellah. Trouble with this guy is that he was just so boreing, if he hadn't been so slow, we could have forgiven him the rest.

You have to know the mistakes to learn. You are right Dave, the problem was that he was slow. That was because he thought he had to fill out the evening. I had asked that he be asked to be done by coffee to prevent us all dying of boredom but i guess it didn't happen. Next time I'll speak to the judge myself. But there won't be a next time as we will have loads of entries from all our wonderful talented new members!

Oh dear!
Sadly skills that a good judge needs aren't generally and widely taught and to make good public orator and have the ability to offer positive feedback 100% of the time takes personality - so for some it must be very difficult, (you can see the awkwardness in the body language) Offer them a bit of slack and like Julia says the best remedy is to manage them to suit the Clubs expectations. Jane

It is sometimes good to hear a judges comments. What I don't like is to hear great praise for my photograph in the first half and then to be given an average mark in the second.
I also find it impossible to fathom out what objective values I am being awarded points for. Everything seems subjective.
I like the picture = good mark,
I don't like the picture = average mark (Very few judges give a mark lower than 14)
If my composition is well balanced, the photo has impact, I have made good use of the light, my subject is either tack sharp (or moodily soft by choice), no part of the picture is burnt out, detail is visible in shade and highlights and I love the picture, I feel bitter when I am given a poor mark because its a photo of my dog and the judge doesn't like dogs.
I used to be a teacher. If I gave marks just because I liked what my pupil had written, I would never have made my students think, not challenged them to investigate and stifled the voices of those who had done well by not recognising their achievement.
Judging needs revolutionising.

My thoughts exactly.